441 ответов в теме

[Korvin]

Пушеры мать вашу XD
Вы еще скажите, что кризис менеджмента в ЦЦП и сокращение на 20% протолкнули в ЦСМ6 за пол года

2Step

Can you explain us, why CSM6 process and activity was completely hidden from the public, more than NDA had required?

What tools and measures a particular candidate used to push those ideas?
And what resources CCP had used to implement those ideas in such a short time?

How players can check it and say, ok a particular CSM6 member did that job and not lying, trying to steal credits from someone else when the job was done?

What your chairman says - you are lying.

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 28 February 2012 - 17:36

[Inggroth]

22.04.2011

CCP Veritas’ newest dev blog details his thoughts and ideas regarding bringing time dilation to fleet fights to help combat the War on Lag.

thoughts and ideas

Это не "было анонсированно" a "может быть когда-нибудь, а теперь заткнитесь и платите абонемент, нам инкарну и даст доделывать надо"

Сообщение отредактировал Inggroth: 28 February 2012 - 17:38

[Korvin]

22.04.2011


Это не "было анонсированно" a "может быть когда-нибудь, а теперь заткнитесь и платите абонемент, нам инкарну и даст доделывать надо"

Открою страшную тайну, ЦЦП никогда не напишет девблог, если у них нет готового решения.
Девблог и обсуждение этого решения, иногда может внести некоторые коррективы в реализацию, что по факту происходит весьма редко.

Coбственно

Time dilation wasn't CSM6's idea or anything.

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 28 February 2012 - 18:50

[twostep]

Пушеры мать вашу XD
Вы еще скажите, что кризис менеджмента в ЦЦП и сокращение на 20% протолкнули в ЦСМ6 за пол года

2Step

Can you explain us, why CSM6 process and activity was completely hidden from the public, more than NDA had required?

What tools and measures a particular candidate used to push those ideas?
And what resources CCP had used to implement those ideas in such a short time?

How players can check it and say, ok a particular CSM6 member did that job and not lying, trying to steal credits from someone else when the job was done?

What your chairman says - you are lying.

We did let people down on the communications front. We should have spoken to the public more often. There are a couple things that made that tough:
1) The Incarna mess and the Jita riots. At the time of these, we *couldn't* speak publicly, as everything we knew was covered under the NDA, and CCP was very slow to announce their changes.
2) The CSM is a lot more work now. Many of us spend at least an hour a day on CSM stuff, and asking us to spend more is not really all that fair.
3) When we do talk, it is very difficult to deal with the NDA. Players end up very unsatisfied, as we can't really answer any of their questions.

We do need to figure out how to do a better job communicating, and that should be one of the main goals of CSM 7.

The tools we use are the Skype conversation we have running 24/7 with the devs, as well as the CSM forums, which have a lot more dev involvement now. It is still up to CCP to decide to listen to us, but we can also apply pressure in public, as we did when CCP was going in the wrong direction last Summer.

CCP has a lot more resources to work on the spaceship part of EVE then they have had in a long time. This means they do rely on the CSM more to help with prioritizing what needs to be done.

The players can check on us by asking the other CSMs. I suppose you might worry that we all would lie, but as you can see, in elections the knives come out. If another CSM feels I am not being truthful, they would happily come out and say it.

"My chairman" hasn't said I am lying, I'd love for you to show me where you are getting that.

[Korvin]

"My chairman" hasn't said I am lying, I'd love for you to show me where you are getting that.

He never said "you", he said "they".
As far as I remember, that was his main statement on a CSM6 elections. And he never hides, that he meant even himself.
Now when the CSM process was closed, and running with a people claiming that everyone are liars, probably judging by themselfs, do you expect someone to trust them with no evidences?

I know what NDA is, I signed a copy by myself.
There is no limitations to express your own judgments, views or ideas, and discuss them on a public in a public debates. That is what all CSMs before was doing.
More than that, CSM as a stakeholder could make the the process even more transparent, asking CCP to reveal some of their goals and plans not under NDA. I believe that we don't need another black box.

Personally, I have nothing against you. I even can believe you, that you tried your best in a circumstances you was in the CSM6.
All that I was pointing at - is that some people try to take all credits of Crucible in their election platform, as their own, and that is wrong.
I'm talking about other csm6 candidates platforms that was posted here.

Well, you had a courage to admit, that TiDi was not a CSM6 idea, so there is a hope.

[twostep]

He never said "you", he said "they".
As far as I remember, that was his main statement on a CSM6 elections. And he never hides, that he meant even himself.
Now when the CSM process was closed, and running with a people claiming that everyone are liars, probably judging by themselfs, do you expect someone to trust them with no evidences?

I know what NDA is, I signed a copy by myself.
There is no limitations to express your own judgments, views or ideas, and discuss them on a public in a public debates. That is what all CSMs before was doing.
More than that, CSM as a stakeholder could make the the process even more transparent, asking CCP to reveal some of their goals and plans not under NDA. I believe that we don't need another black box.

Personally, I have nothing against you. I even can believe you, that you tried your best in a circumstances you was in the CSM6.
All that I was pointing at - is that some people try to take all credits of Crucible in their election platform, as their own, and that is wrong.
I'm talking about other csm6 candidates platforms that was posted here.

Well, you had a courage to admit, that TiDi was not a CSM6 idea, so there is a hope.

Most of the people running for CSM in general aren't running on realistic platforms. Anyone who runs and says, "I will make CCP change X, Y, and Z" *is* lying. I am not doing that. I am saying that I *did* things. You know how you can now fit Capital Shield Transporters on Chimeras and Niddys? That was from my suggestion. Many of the other ship balance decisions were based on things that I (and many other CSMs) discussed with CCP. Corp bookmarks were done when they were because I (and other CSMs, and the players) kept pushing CCP to do them. Anyone on the CSM isn't getting stuff done by themselves, since at a minimum, you need someone in CCP to do the work, but we do have an impact on the process.

In general, we constantly urge CCP to make as much stuff public as we can. It is ultimately their choice, and they choose to be a lot less public than I think they should.

If you are talking about other candidates, then talk about them in their thread. If you have a problem with what I have said, speak up here. I would challenge you to find a single CSM 6 member who is claiming that TiDi was an idea from the CSM. It was all CCP Veritas, we just made sure he got the support he needed to get it done.

Do you have a transcript of this debate ? I can translate it into russian.

Just realized I missed this post. Sorry, I don't have a transcript. If I have some free time this weekend I will see if I can produce one, at least of the questions and answers I gave.

[Korvin]

Corp bookmarks were done when they were because I (and other CSMs, and the players) kept pushing CCP to do them. Anyone on the CSM isn't getting stuff done by themselves, since at a minimum, you need someone in CCP to do the work, but we do have an impact on the process.

So basically, what you try to say is, that dozens of other CSM members, starting from CSM4 as we see in proposal, continuing in CSM5 and CSM6 were pushing this idea, and CCP had finally realized we want it and did it in few months during the CSM6 term.

Why players should vote for you, instead of anyone else of CSM4, CSM5 or CSM6? You just pushed it harder or what?

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 28 February 2012 - 23:10

[twostep]

So basically, what you try to say is, that dozens of other CSM members, starting from CSM4 as we see in proposal, continuing in CSM5 and CSM6 were pushing this idea, and CCP had finally realized we want it and did it in few months during the CSM6 term.

Why players should vote for you, instead of anyone else of CSM4, CSM5 or CSM6? You just pushed it harder or what?

Uh, I think you just laid out a pretty darn good reason. Unlike those CSM4 and CSM5 members, I actually got it done.

[Korvin]

Uh, I think you just laid out a pretty darn good reason. Unlike those CSM4 and CSM5 members, I actually got it done.

See, thats what I'm talking about

So, I can also claim, that I did all those good things that was happened during the CSM4 and 5. Thats your logic.

The real fact is - that noone have a single idea wtf you were pushing in CSM6, what you were voting for as a single candidate, what player's ideas was supported by a particular CSM6 member, and what was rejected by CCP. And all the above is not under NDA, unlike the CCP plans they revealed for you. So, was there any player's proposals at all? Or you were just sitting there to preview the next fanfest announcements made by CCP? Who can say that for sure?

The funniest thing is - why would you want to change this situation, if you would be re-elected by the blind playerbase?

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 29 February 2012 - 1:10

[kwel]

Корвин, успокойся уже. У two step был шанс забрать все голоса вормхольщиков, посколку никто из других кандидатов толком ничего про ВХ не знает, но после последних действий и болтовни ахармов - он и те потерял. Рад что ты решил вернуться, теперь есть за кого голосовать =)

[trik]

Про клоны в рорке.
Я слышал только 1 аргумент против. Люди буду клонеджампать в дырку, чтобы пару часиков пофармить. Вариация этого - поставят несколько посов и будут прыгать между ними.

Ни за не против - прыжок на пос пандемиков-гидры-гипсей-редальянся-дичей с ненулевой вероятностью насаммонит блоб, который будет драться до последнего корыта на посе.
Тоже самое смогут сделать и нападающие, и выгнать их из системы можно будет только снеся пос, убив все их корыта.

Аргумент за - вместо отсидки по посам до часа Ч народ будет стреляться, если есть запас корыт. Нулевой блоб будет натурально ограничен количеством корыт в СМА, и при контроле дыры новые завести будет проблематично. Даже "двухчасовые" фермеры добавят целей, хотя они уронят цены на т3. С другой стороны пока ЦЦП не трогает синьку, это не так актуально.

Вывод. Возражать против клонилки в рорке не наш метод, изменение позитивное и привнесет всем чутка радости.

[Korvin]

Клонилка в Рорке - позитивная тема, тут спорить глупо даже.

У джампа блоба на пос дефенс есть и другая сторона - там же будет куча пустых кораблей, приготовленных под этот джамп. Это какой же жир можно будет поиметь, таки внезапно этот пос поимев.

И вопрос тут только в том, когда ССП это сделают. До сих пор они откладывали это на потом, мотивируя тем, что надо предварительно переписать кучу кода. 18 месяцев прошло, возможно и перепишут теперь.

Ладно, оставим ТуCтепу в покое. Не в то время он попал в ЦСМ. Возможно в других обстоятельствах бы и раскрылся.

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 29 February 2012 - 0:48

[twostep]

See, thats what I'm talking about

So, I can also claim, that I did all those good things that was happened during the CSM4 and 5. Thats your logic.

The real fact is - that noone have a single idea wtf you were pushing in CSM6, what you were voting for as a single candidate, what player's ideas was supported by a particular CSM6 member, and what was rejected by CCP. And all the above is not under NDA, unlike the CCP plans they revealed for you. So, was there any player's proposals at all? Or you were just sitting there to preview the next fanfest announcements made by CCP? Who can say that for sure?

The funniest thing is - why would you want to change this situation, if you would be re-elected by the blind playerbase?

You can claim that, but I suspect the folks on those CSMs might dispute that somewhat.

Also, we don't do the voting thing anymore. In general, we are talking to devs in real time on Skype, or non-real time on the CSM forums.

We do pass on player proposals, but in general, CCP has a ton of stuff to work on already, and most of the player proposals are things that are already known by CCP.

It does make it hard to say what the CSM has accomplished, but I don't think it was any easier in the past. It has always been CCP that decides what gets done, and if they happen to decide to work on what you guys voted for, how could you say it was because you had voted on it?

In the end, like just about everything in the game, it comes down to trust. If you think I am lying about what I did during my time on the CSM, don't vote for me.

Корвин, успокойся уже. У two step был шанс забрать все голоса вормхольщиков, посколку никто из других кандидатов толком ничего про ВХ не знает, но после последних действий и болтовни ахармов - он и те потерял. Рад что ты решил вернуться, теперь есть за кого голосовать =)

I don't understand why you would associate voting (or not voting) for me with what actions my corporation takes in game? Nearly all of my voters are people that I would happily shoot at, and it doesn't matter at all to them. If you live in wormholes and are voting for someone just because they speak your language, I think you are making a huge mistake. Why would someone who lives in 0.0 care about bugs in wormholes? Why would they care if you can't have proper security in your POS, when they can keep stuff in a station?

I am not trying to be elected to be your best friend, I am trying to be elected to represent your interests in game. Those interests have nothing at all to do with if we happen to be shooting at each other right now.

Я не понимаю, почему вы связали бы голосование (голосование или нет) для меня с тем, что действия мои корпорация занимает в игре? Почти все мои избиратели люди, которых я бы с удовольствием стрелять, и это не имеет значения для них. Если вы живете в кротовые норы и голосовать за кого-то только потому, что они говорят на вашем языке, я думаю, что вы делаете огромную ошибку. Зачем, кто живет в 0.0 заботиться о ошибок в кротовые норы? Зачем им все равно, если вы не можете иметь надлежащий уровень безопасности в POS, когда они могут держать вещи на станции?

Я не пытаюсь быть избранным, чтобы быть вашим лучшим другом, я пытаюсь быть избран представлять Ваши интересы в игре. Эти интересы не имеют ничего общего с, если мы, случается, стреляют друг в друга прямо сейчас.

[Korvin]

You can claim that, but I suspect the folks on those CSMs might dispute that somewhat.

Also, we don't do the voting thing anymore. In general, we are talking to devs in real time on Skype, or non-real time on the CSM forums.

We do pass on player proposals, but in general, CCP has a ton of stuff to work on already, and most of the player proposals are things that are already known by CCP.

It does make it hard to say what the CSM has accomplished, but I don't think it was any easier in the past. It has always been CCP that decides what gets done, and if they happen to decide to work on what you guys voted for, how could you say it was because you had voted on it?

In the end, like just about everything in the game, it comes down to trust. If you think I am lying about what I did during my time on the CSM, don't vote for me.

When it comes to the time when you need to do a compromise, the CSM like this is not a player base interest representation. It all goes to the process of shouting out the others in the Skype, instead of discussions and seeking the best solution.

Now the process like you described is not far from what is going on during the fanfest. Drunk players does a ton of conflicting proposals to drunk devs. Than they might recall something and even do it, or probably just skip it and when another CSM would ask the same question - just do the same over and over again.
So why do we need CSM like this? We just can get a fanfest ticket and do the same with devs without you.

No really, i don't even need a fanfest ticket to do it. I can just add all devs in my facebook, join dev irc on a coldfront and do it there.
How do you represent the playerbase this way?

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 29 February 2012 - 1:50

[trik]

You can claim that, but I suspect the folks on those CSMs might dispute that somewhat.

Also, we don't do the voting thing anymore. In general, we are talking to devs in real time on Skype, or non-real time on the CSM forums.

We do pass on player proposals, but in general, CCP has a ton of stuff to work on already, and most of the player proposals are things that are already known by CCP.

It does make it hard to say what the CSM has accomplished, but I don't think it was any easier in the past. It has always been CCP that decides what gets done, and if they happen to decide to work on what you guys voted for, how could you say it was because you had voted on it?

In the end, like just about everything in the game, it comes down to trust. If you think I am lying about what I did during my time on the CSM, don't vote for me.

Тут несколько неудачная фраза. "Девы на скайпе" (точнее мсн) было одной из причин создания ЦСМ, и именно для того, чтобы избежать этой ситуации. Подразумевалось, что это будет открытый выборный орган, обеспечивающий фидбек от игроков для ЦЦП и уверенность игроков что ведется честная игра, без "любимчиков" (ака БоБ).
Если рассматривать ЦСМ как бесплатных БА в команде ЦЦП, то тогда описанный подход верен, но к оригинальным целям и задачам это уже отношения неимеет.
Рант моде он.
Вот американская конституция. Клевая штука. Но прошло 200 лет и все обосрали и извратили. Так же и с ЦСМ, тока быстрее.
Рант моде офф.

PS Давайте лучше про клонилку на рорке, а не про то кто кого назвал земляным червяком.

Сообщение отредактировал trik: 29 February 2012 - 1:57

[twostep]

When it comes to the time when you need to do a compromise, the CSM like this is not a player base interest representation. It all goes to the process of shouting out the others in the Skype, instead of discussions and seeking the best solution.

Now the process like you described is not far from what is going on during the fanfest. Drunk players does a ton of conflicting proposals to drunk devs. Than they might recall something and even do it, or probably just skip it and when another CSM would ask the same question - just do the same over and over again.
So why do we need CSM like this? We just can get a fanfest ticket and do the same with devs without you.

No really, i don't even need a fanfest ticket to do it. I can just add all devs in my facebook, join dev irc on a coldfront and do it there.
How do you represent the playerbase this way?

So, uh, why are you running for CSM then?

Where did I say there is no discussion? There is far, far more discussion than there ever was before. The difference is that instead of the CSM sitting in a meeting once a month and talking about something for 10 minutes, the CSM and the devs who have to implement it are talking about it over the course of a couple of days. This results in real changes that are realistic for CCP to implement. A good example of this is implants on podmails. That was asked for by the CSM, and we talked about how it could be done and if it was possible to get into Crucible with CCP Masterplan directly. He came back in a few days and said it was done.

If you think that is the same as talking to drunk devs at FF, or talking to sober devs in a public IRC channel, then don't bother to run for CSM.

[xX_DEATH_Xx]

Two Step is one of the best guys in CSM6 - VOTE FOR HIM

LOVE!!!!

[Korvin]

If you think that is the same as talking to drunk devs at FF, or talking to sober devs in a public IRC channel, then don't bother to run for CSM.

On the contrary, I would run for CSM once more to keep the process open to all players, as it should be.

Сообщение отредактировал Korvin: 29 February 2012 - 3:20

[trik]

I don't understand why you would associate voting (or not voting) for me with what actions my corporation takes in game?

I believe that its stemming from the fact that its percieved normal in english-speaking community to post passages like this in blogs and forums:

I get jammed again and helplessly orbit the Oracle, making sure not to derp at this point and die horribly. I have the chance to leave but like a dog with a meal after starving all day, I’m really determined to kill this damn Russian.

to kill this damn Russian.
to kill this damn Russian.

A forum/blog post is a restrospective of the in-game experience by the person behind the toon. And that person desperately wanted "to kill this damn Russian".
Honestly, would you like a person which associates himself with a bunch of people calling you "a damn russian" or lets say "frog" which they want "to kill" as a representative, especially if he goes on about anti-racism which is seen as an additional insult to the injury? I guess kwel is talking about this annoying issue.

This is more about our lifes and prejustices rather than ingame stuff. We cannot fix bad customs in a moment, but establishing a firm policy of avoiding political/cultural issues would be a big step forward towards enjoyable game for everyone.

Сообщение отредактировал trik: 29 February 2012 - 5:56

[twostep]

I believe that its stemming from the fact that its percieved normal in english-speaking community to post passages like this in blogs and forums:


to kill this damn Russian.
to kill this damn Russian.

A forum/blog post is a restrospective of the in-game experience by the person behind the toon. And that person desperately wanted "to kill this damn Russian".
Honestly, would you like a person which associates himself with a bunch of people calling you "a damn russian" or lets say "frog" which they want "to kill" as a representative, especially if he goes on about anti-racism which is seen as an additional insult to the injury? I guess kwel is talking about this annoying issue.

This is more about our lifes and prejustices rather than ingame stuff. We cannot fix bad customs in a moment, but establishing a firm policy of avoiding political/cultural issues would be a big step forward towards enjoyable game for everyone.

Huh? I googled that comment, and it was on a blog that has nothing at all to do with me. If you are going to judge me based on what one random blog says, why shouldn't the rest of the EVE community judge you based on what Fon says?

I came here to reach out to the Russian wormhole community, which is a group that I personally have a lot of respect for. I'm not here to try to apologize for all the nationalistic/racist comments made by both sides. I'm here to convince people that voting for someone who has the same challenges and lifestyle they have is more important than voting for someone who speaks the same language they do.